Sb008
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Hej, Der er ikke koncensus om at ændre kategoristystemet omkring hollandske fodboldspillere! der har været lange diskussioner om problematikken der endte med en afstemning, hvor konklusionen var: Det er acceptabelt at skrive Holland, hvor der menes Nederland, for Holland er synonymt med Nederland. (2005) og igen i 20008: Hvordan skal artiklen og kategorierne vedr. landet Holland/Nederland/Nederlandene navngives? Resultat: Der gøres intet særligt i relation til navnet. Wikipedia:Afsluttede_afstemninger) - Nico (diskussion) 18. feb 2020, 23:37 (CET)
- @Nico: Hi, I don't speak Danish, so I will do this in English. You say it's acceptable to use Holland where the Netherlands is meant and that the words are synonyms. Well let me tell you that the 2 words are not synonyms. The Netherlabds is a country. Holland is not a country and nothing more than a region within the country. To call the Netherlands Holland is as wrong as to call Denmark Sjaelland or Nordjylland or any of the other regions. You say it's acceptable. Well, it isn't for me and many other Dutch, we consider it discriminating and unsulting. Let me give one reference:Statement by Dutch emvassy in Sweden. I quote "Though it is generally accepted that the Netherlands is referred to as Holland in many different languages, some Dutch people, especially those not from North or South Holland, do not like the habit. This website used to use ‘Holland’ instead of ‘the Netherlands’ to make page and menu titles shorter, but we received emails from Dutch visitors who objected." Terms like "do not like the habit" and "who objected" is expressing in a diplomatic way that it's discriminating and insulting. I never knew the Danish as people who intentionally discriminate and I sure hope I don't need to change that opinion. --Sb008 (diskussion) 19. feb 2020, 00:02 (CET)
@Sb008: - (sorry, i'm not good in english) This is Wikipedia in danish, and we have made our decisions on this topic, after hard discussions, years ago. I'll try to translate the conclusion from above: It is acceptabel to write Holland, for Nederland, because Holland is synonymous with Nederland. It is common in danish to use Holland, and for the most danish Netherland sounds like foreign language. - Even the danish Foreign Minister use Holland in danish. - Nico (diskussion) 19. feb 2020, 09:10 (CET)
- Sb008, if you don't speak Danish, you cannot say anything about what Danish words mean and what is correct in Danish, so please don't make changes in Danish Wikipedia. Thank you. --Kartebolle (Dipsacus fullonum) (diskussion) 19. feb 2020, 09:47 (CET)
- It is pretty simply: in Danish Holland and Nederlandene is used synonymously, and if you think you can change the Danish language then good luck. It has been discussed years ago how Danish Wikipedia will approach the naming of Dutch subjects and as Nico writes the conclusion was that Holland is perfectly fine. If you want to change this bring it up in an appropriate discussion and don't just start change categories. If some Dutch people might be offended if you call The Netherlands "Holland" to their face, then they must just stop reading the Danish Wikipedia. If the people in Denmark collectively decided that from now on they wanted to be called "Awesome Danes" then I wouldn't expect every other nation to change they vernacular just like that. It takes time, and some places it would probably never happen.. And we have a habit of not giving a damn anyway. Toxophilus (diskussion) 19. feb 2020, 09:54 (CET)
@Dipsacus fullonum: Let me ask you a question. Who decides whether the N word for Afro-Americans is insulting and discriminating, the Afro-Americans or the Americans in general or the Danish? I would say the Afro-Americans. It is totally irrelevant which meaning other Americans or Danish give to the N word. The only thing which is relevant is how the Afro-Americans feel about the word. By definition those who it concerns decide what's correct, what's discriminating and what's insulting. The Danish do not decide what is the correct name of my country!!!
Now, I do believe that many Danish think the Netherlands and Holland is the same. But a lot of people thinking something, doesn't actually mean it's correct. In the middle ages people thought the earth was flat. But were they right? In Danish 2 words exist, Nederlandene and Holland. You claim both words have the same meaning. If so, for how many other countries there exist 2 words in Danish? Can you name me 1? Or is it maybe because the 2 words have a different meaning after all?
Maybe you can call the Danish ministry of foreign afairs. Ask them if they are willing to make an official statement that the Netherlands and Holland are the same. Should be easy, after all @Nico: claims that even Danish minister of foreign affairs calls my country Holland. I doubt very much they will do so, since at their website you can find at the bottom a pull down menu "Ambassade-wedsites" which lists "Nederlandene" and not "Holland". When you select Nederlandene you end up on the website Danmark i Nederlandene. All in all, I think, at the Danish ministry of foreign affairs, they know very well which is the correct name of my country. I think that even the Danish minister of foreign affairs will use the proper name for my country. To quote Jeppe Kofod: "Vi har tidligere i dag orienteret EU-systemet, og vil i morgen sammen med Nederlandene rejse sagen på et officielt møde i Bruxelles. Vi står med en organisation, som vi i Danmark sigter for spionage og som Nederlandene sigter for terrorrelaterede aktiviteter. Vi skal aldrig acceptere den slags på europæisk jord,"
And when you have that official statement of the Danish ministry of foreign afairs, you can maybe find some Danish people with a college degree in e.g. geography, European history or any one else who has a degree to prove he/she has real knowledge on the topic, willing to claim the Netherlands and Holland are the same. Here is an article from a Danish history site who clearly doesn't think the 2 words are the same. Or maybe you like this aryicle in the Jyllands Posten better? And if that's not enough you might want to read "Om ordene nederlandsk, hollandsk, flamsk, Nederlandene, Holland og Flandern" from the linguist Lisbeth Falster Jakobsen.
All in all, maybe I don't know the meaning of Danish words, but if so, for some odd reason the Danish ministry of foreign afairs, a history site, a newspaper and a linguist don't know either. Or could it be that you think you know the correct meaning, but actually don't?
It seems to me I can say a lot more about the correct neaning of those Danish words than you do.
The big question now is, after the necessary background information is offered to you, whether you choose to discriminate and insult me or not? And I really don't care which language you will use for doing so.
Extra addition: @Toxophilus: If, as of tomorrow, Denmark would offically rename the country to "Awesome Denmark" I would think it to be only appropriate to call you "Awesome Danes". But let me reverse the question. If in some country people collectively would start calling you "<pick a random insulting word> Danes", it would be perfectly fine? And Danes who objected just had to ignore it? Furthermore, like in any language, there are probably some words in Danish most people don't know how to write correct. In your line of reasoning, these collectively misspelled words should be used on DK Wiki instead of the words correctly spelled? So Wikipedia should not be an encyclopedia of facts but a reflection of the misbelieve of ordinary Danes? Wikipedia has no educational purpose but is there to keep fairy tales and misbelieves alive? I sure hope the majority of the Danes don't believe 1+1=3. Could be interesting, if at test on an elementary school in Denmark the kids collective answer a calculus question wrong, the answer is still considered correct. After all, not the factual knowledge of the teacher is correct, but the collective misbelieve of the students. Same questions to you, get me an official statement from the ministry of foreign affairs and some proven experts on the topic that the Netherlands and Holland are synonyms. -Sb008 (diskussion) 19. feb 2020, 12:11 (CET)
- The speakers of the Danish language decides what is correct in that language. --Kartebolle (Dipsacus fullonum) (diskussion)
- @Dipsacus fullonum: Both words are correct Danish words, but they don't mean the same, as is confirmed by the Damish ministry of foreign afairs, a history institute, a newspaper and a linguist. Seems to me Danish people and organisations who are generally respected and have some authority on the matter have indeed decided what's the correct name for my country. What is your expertise to know better? --Sb008 (diskussion) 19. feb 2020, 13:07 (CET)
- Yes, they mean the same. That is confirmed by Dansk Sprognævn ("Danish Language Council"), the official regulatory body of the Danish language. And it is decided at this Wikipedia that both is are acceptable and that it is the user who writes an article who decides which one to use. --Kartebolle (Dipsacus fullonum) (diskussion) 19. feb 2020, 13:40 (CET)
- As I recall, there is a country that you call Griekenland. We call it Grækenland, the british people say Greece. It is called Ellada by the inhabitants. Go change Griekenland please! Denmark has been trading with Netherlands for many centuries and mostly with cities in the Holland part, so that is why we call it Holland. It is simlpy the danish name for that country, and out of respect we use Netherlands when our parlament is doing some official stuff. Get used to it. --Jørgen (diskussion) 20. feb 2020, 20:02 (CET)
- Yes, they mean the same. That is confirmed by Dansk Sprognævn ("Danish Language Council"), the official regulatory body of the Danish language. And it is decided at this Wikipedia that both is are acceptable and that it is the user who writes an article who decides which one to use. --Kartebolle (Dipsacus fullonum) (diskussion) 19. feb 2020, 13:40 (CET)
- @Dipsacus fullonum: Both words are correct Danish words, but they don't mean the same, as is confirmed by the Damish ministry of foreign afairs, a history institute, a newspaper and a linguist. Seems to me Danish people and organisations who are generally respected and have some authority on the matter have indeed decided what's the correct name for my country. What is your expertise to know better? --Sb008 (diskussion) 19. feb 2020, 13:07 (CET)